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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have and will in the future exchange help for help. Example, another cacher asked if I could show them a few tricks to solving puzzles.(online puzzle solvers, map solves using info on page,etc) I asked for tips on finding caches. Lets face it we've been caching only regulars for the most part to improve that part of caching. (I still hate pine trees). I've been told by a more wiser cacher that should be fine but another cacher thinks that's cheating. Please don't be bothered if others do the same. This is a learning experience for everyone.
 
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Walkingadventure
WGA President
WGA President



Joined: 2009-05-06
Posts: 2791
Location: Neenah

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I thought TJSAAVEDRA was posting here. Whoops.

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The posts and opinions shared here are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the beliefs of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8237
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:14 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Play the game with whatever rules you're comfortable with.

I posted the following in another thread earlier today but will repeat it here as I believe it's the "respectable" way to get help.

1) GC # / Cache Name (both would be great)
2) What they have assumed about the puzzle type (i.e. it's an anagram, it's a soduko, it's a math puzzle, it's a trivia puzzle, etc.)
3) What have they tried? Please include specifics as applicable.
4) If the question is specific to a particular digit(s) of the solve, please provide the details behind it including any website used, math used, etc. This really helps the CO get right to the point.
5) Be as specific as possible when emailing the CO. They are certainly willing to help, but without knowing what you've tried, what you're assuming, etc. they can't provide much help.
6) Feel free to write a note to the cache page when you solve it and the solve is fresh in your head. Obviously try to avoid spoilers, but feel free to claim victory of the solve prior to actually finding it.
7) If you're group logging a puzzle cache, provide the CO with the common courtesy of telling them (via the log) "XYZ solved it, ABC found it first, but we had a great time caching as a group today."
 
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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Zgmen likes our arrangement and I will pass that on

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Muggle B
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-06-29
Posts: 339
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:58 am Reply with quote Back to top

helping someone find the answer (or cache) is one thing, but handing someone the answer (or cache) is cheating
IMO
but this really isn't a competition game, so, your only cheating yourself (and the CO depending on their wishes)

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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:53 am Reply with quote Back to top

So teaching them how to solve the puzzle is wrong? I thought the whole point is to solve the puzzle.

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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8237
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:59 am Reply with quote Back to top

Hardinfam wrote:
So teaching them how to solve the puzzle is wrong? I thought the whole point is to solve the puzzle.

I think you're missing the point, which is that the CO should be the primary / first source to provide information regarding their puzzle.
 
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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

But what if the CO is unresponsive? Or giving helpful advice like solving a puzzle from clues on the page. I solved a puzzle recently without going to the first waypoint first (I went there to see if my guess was close though) I showed him that technique I thought COs wanted there puzzle solved not handed. If w both grow from our experiences isn't that good? What's worse flaming people on a public forum for having a different way of caching/learning and bullying them or getting revenge by solving and finding the caches of that person. I know I have made anti-acquaintances and I've tried to ignore. They then proceed to flame me here so I solved as many as I can, grabbed my neighbor Tim and the kids and proceeded to find them. I did see other cachers doing the same thing ,apparently.

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Muggle B
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-06-29
Posts: 339
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:55 am Reply with quote Back to top

The best teachers don't give any answers out, they guide them in the right direction and let them discover the answer for them selves.

re-read my first post, the word changes from helping to handing (big difference)

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JimandLinda
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-08-14
Posts: 5421
Location: Rosendale WI

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:59 am Reply with quote Back to top

I see no problem with caching any way you want to.

I have a problem with asking others to follow your lead, when it may not be widely accepted by the caching community.
 
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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

Well it's a good thing I don't Muggle B.

Jimandlinda I don't ask anyone to follow my lead.

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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8237
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:00 am Reply with quote Back to top

Hardinfam wrote:
I don't ask anyone to follow my lead.

I'm confused then because isn't that the whole point of this thread which is titled "Helping each other out"?

You started the thread with the following
Hardinfam wrote:
I have and will in the future exchange help for help.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:18 am Reply with quote Back to top

Muggle B wrote:
The best teachers don't give any answers out, they guide them in the right direction and let them discover the answer for them selves.

re-read my first post, the word changes from helping to handing (big difference)


I agree with this completely.

I have helped everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY, who has come to me for help. Helping is just that--not "answering."
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:56 am Reply with quote Back to top

The unfortunate thing about becoming an avid cacher and then stepping into the WGA forums is that you walk into a room filled with very strong opinions – developed over years of vitriolic exchanges on the ever cycling topics of caching ethics, puzzle short-cutting and solve-sharing. Even the most inane and innocent request for help raises the ire of those who've been down this road and been burned so many times before.

It's been touched on in this and other recent threads. The prevailing issue in all of these discussions, comes down to respecting the wishes of the cache creator, no matter what type or how intricate the cache. If you place a power trial, you should certainly expect nothing more that a "TFTC #___" Conversely, if you place a puzzle cache that took you many many hours to contemplate, develop and execute, you expect a whole lot more in the "found it" log than TFTC or an emotican. There really are no legitimate reasons for not sharing what it took to make the solve, what you may have learned in the process and what the experience of making the find was like. The reward we puzzle creators get from our time and energy invested is relishing the solve experiences in the retelling. Limitations of time and or technology are just excuses for not giving back.

Now, I can totally understand the desire to log complex puzzle caches if you manage to get your hands on solves via the social caching network or other means and I get that it might be difficult to let "?"'s est un-found if you can just go sign the slip of paper, not having invested the hours into "getting it". Many of us have even come to accept that some cachers cannot simply ignore puzzle caches, which they have little interest in solving, and feel that the "rules" allow them to make a legitimate find, creator's intentions be damned.

Yet, even then, these players have an opportunity to stay in the good graces of puzzle owners and it's so easy that I don't understand why more power cachers don't do it, especially when a power cacher's manner of caching becomes readily apparent in their logs and the geocaching community forms an impression of the their style. We don't operate in a bubble and every log builds on the previous – we are a curious lot and like to know who's logging our caches. Add on a few forum posts bolstering the first impression and it becomes indelible and hard to erase.

I'm no authority and If I claim to be a wise man, well.... All I can do is suggest two simple and obvious guidelines.

First, please ASK the PUZZLE OWNER for help, before going down any other route. If they are unresponsive (and please give us a day or two since many of us are not as active as we once were and it might take a few days), then reach out to previous finders.

Second, cache in whatever manner makes you happy, especially if it means getting out with family and friends. But, if you must log a puzzle without understanding how it works, than at least save face and say as much in your "found it" log. Few seem to appreciate how much better the impression left when a log looks like this "loved the idea of your puzzle and even though I didn't fully solve it, I did learn something and that made it worth the visit" rather than a hollow copy/paste log like "loved your cache, thanks for putting it out", which communicates the exact opposite.

Most of all, enjoy yourself and try not to get too worked up in here. Most of us become accustomed over time to the machinations of the sport and its players, but even the old Buddha's like Zuma, who teach tolerance and understanding, can reach a tipping point where the irritation becomes too itchy to ignore and need to get it out.
 
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Team Black-Cat
WGA Webmaster
WGA Webmaster



Joined: 2007-09-13
Posts: 6092
Location: Somewhere in Central WI

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:38 am Reply with quote Back to top

Well said, S|S, but I really don't think zuma looks at all like Buddah.

I really can't understand why it's easier to ask a previous finder for a clue than it is to ask the cache owner. That will always baffle me. When it becomes obvious that has occured, I simply shrug and say to myself "whatever...". Even when one of my favorite puzzles is completely short-cutted I have the satisfaction of knowing that those that actually solved it enjoyed it. If the non-solvers enjoyed finding the container, good. If they didn't enjoy it, too bad.
Unfortunatly, the cachers that need to "clear the map" are, IN GENERAL, the ones that have caused GC to lean towards requiring that all caches must be able to be found by every cacher. I'm not a fan of the least common denominator.

To get back on topic, when i do get a request for help on one of my puzzles, I try to find out how much of a clue they want. Most have actually attempted to figure it out, so I try to get them over the hump.

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