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f1rebirds
WGA Member



Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:59 am Reply with quote Back to top

10. Lonely cache reports must be submitted within 7 days of the find/attempt/adoption to eligible to score points. Reports submitted after this time period may be approved but will count for no (0) points.

I知 sure these rules have been implemented for some reason or another with reasoning involved to manage and clarify how the game is played.

In regards to #10, while looking at the recently submitted reports there are several that have a greater than 7 day period between action date and submit date with points approved. While submitting reports out of the period is totally within this rule, expecting and or receiving credit is not.

I would assume this must be an oversight or the report reviewers, but I知 not sure? Confused

I would like some clarification as to how or if this rule is being applied or if I知 just not interpreting it properly. If it痴 no longer being applied I may consider changing the way I submit my reports in the future.
 
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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8206
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:39 am Reply with quote Back to top

I believe the intention was to allow those reviewing these to easily find the logs on the cache page for verification. It also prevents "sandbagging" where somebody enters a bunch of reports near the very end of the month and gets a whole lot of points.

Considering its all done by volunteers, it is what it is. There may also be oversights in duplicate logs being awarded points. As a past admin of this, it's tough to catch everything and I always erred on the side of awarding points unless there was an obvious mistake by the cacher (I.e. logging a found for a DNF or logging the wrong cache)
 
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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6048
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

While the game has evolved since it first began, many of the rules have not. the current rule revision occurred in Nov 2010 and yes, perhaps we need to look at these rules again and make some changes. With the cut over to the new website, the game admins no longer have the ability to edit the points for the submission if approved as mentioned in Rule #10. The early years of the game seemed to hold a slightly different value in that the monthly point leader/s received a geocoin or other prize often donated by another player. In those days, Rule #10 helped in keeping those "sandbaggers" from waiting until the last moment to spring hundreds of points on the other players. That practice has declined with the withdrawl of offering monthly prizes.

Hopefully that assists in explaining a little on why Rule #10 is not enforced as strictly as it was in the past. All I ask personally is that month end reports be submitted in a timely manner.

I would also envoke rule #11 a,b and e Smile

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All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors 
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huffinpuffin2
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-17
Posts: 2631
Location: Puffindoofer

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:05 am Reply with quote Back to top

f1rebirds wrote:
. . . If it痴 no longer being applied I may consider changing the way I submit my reports in the future.


Hmmmm. How and why?
--------------------------------------------------------
So, if someone found a Lonely Cache on, say, 12/19/12, and then submitted for points on, say, 12/27/12, that would be 8 days and worth 0 points if Rule 10 were strictly enforced? That's one approach, and easy on the brain and the LCG Police.

Don't know the History of the Rule, but always had the sense some of the rules came about in the early 'Wild West' days of the game, to help reign in excessive Strategic Sandbagging; or perhaps it was simply to place a reasonable time-frame on submissions, or a balance between the two.
---------------------------------
Without quoting the game's mission, pretty certain it is to keep the State's caching landscape clean and vibrant, by encouraging participants through fun and rewarding adventures. A Win-Win scenario, that works really well, in our opinion. Perhaps the Game has morphed onto a healthy path, accepting some flexibility in the Rules, and treating them more as guidelines subject to reasonable gamesmanship.
 
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Mister Greenthumb
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-03
Posts: 2676

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:06 am Reply with quote Back to top

I thought it was The Lonely Cache "Game".
Not the Lonely Cache "Life and Death Situation".
 
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Todd300




Joined: 2009-06-05
Posts: 2440
Location: Menominee, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

Mister Greenthumb wrote:
I thought it was The Lonely Cache "Game".
Not the Lonely Cache "Life and Death Situation".

Laughing
 
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f1rebirds
WGA Member



Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks to all who have chimed in on the subject.

I will express appreciation to the reviews and Admin for their volunteered time and efforts to keep the game alive and to help us fulfill the purpose of the Wisconsin Lonely Cache Game.

It looks as thou the game rules may have slightly fallen to the wayside and become more of guidelines for multiple reasons, I知 fine with that and was only looking for some clarification on the subject..... Thanks!

It also appears that maybe the game has evolved and the rules and or guidelines could use a freshening, I personally think they are well thought out, pretty simple and easy to follow as is just my opinionand maybe we could start a new thread on that subject to get some more opinions.

It is labeled a 堵ame, and with that label it brings competition, rules, points, goals, winners and losers, etc. I guess we need to live with that as long as this is called a 堵ame.

A couple interesting tidbits from Wikepedia on some of our subject wording-

Games: Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form of exercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational, or psychological role.

Rules: Whereas games are often characterized by their tools, they are often defined by their rules. While rules are subject to variations and changes, enough change in the rules usually results in a "new" game.

Gamesmanship Twisted Evil : is the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win or gain a serious advantage in a game or sport. It has been described as "Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught, using whatever dubious methods possible to achieve the desired end".
 
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Team Black-Cat
WGA Webmaster
WGA Webmaster



Joined: 2007-09-13
Posts: 6082
Location: Somewhere in Central WI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

This forum is always open for discussion of the rules. There has been a call for discussion of the rules at every LCG year end event that I've attended, but usually nothing is brought up.
I have to agree that if a rule isn't being enforced, then it needs to be modified. I have no idea if this is the case or not.
The WGA has, in my opinion, the best Lonely Cache Game in the country. We have more participants, more reports on lonely caches and better reporting and score keeping. Nobody else even comes close. We may need to make a tweak here and there to keep it that way.
Feel free to start a new thread to discuss changes. And be sure to attend the LCG event. It's usually quicker and easier to discuss things in the 'real world'.

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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Who the heck has time to audit other players' LCG reports or strategize a bunch of sandbagging?

I might suggest volunteer work if you have a lot of idle time on your hands. Maybe a scout group, church, or food pantry?
 
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Todd300




Joined: 2009-06-05
Posts: 2440
Location: Menominee, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Geocaching is a hobby. Not a game.

But many people treat it like a game.

Leave it be, Mike, and let them play the "game" however they want. It's all about numbers to them.
 
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Northwoods Tom
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-12-03
Posts: 632
Location: Washington Island

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have to say I don't care for the subtle and not so subtle jabs at f1rebird.
An individual writes for clarification and the responses aren't all that constructive. What good does that do?
I don稚 see 努hining in his question, I see an individual who is playing the 堵ame by the games 斗isted rules where 菟rizes are listed as being awarded at the 兎vent and he has an interest in being the top scorer and is playing by the 途ules. Congratulations to him!

The purpose behind the game is to get people to visit caches that rarely get visited and reward those individuals. I only monitor caches North of HWY 29 so I can稚 speak for the southern part of the state, but there are a lot of caches where the points are double or more due to how rarely they get visited up there. It gives individuals who live in a less cache-saturated area a chance to compete if they choose, or those further south a chance to score some really big points. Weaken or ignore the rules and many caches become even lonelier.

The rules exist for a reason; I assume if they need changing they will be. As far as the extra work monitoring, those that 菟lay the game by the rules are always available to let you know when someone isn稚 playing by the rules if they choose. I would think it痴 real easy to delete points when someone points it out.

I feel the only response needed for his question should have been: 撤lease PM me with the discrepancies you may have found. I will adjust the scoring if needed after I check it out. Thank you.
 
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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6048
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
I have to say I don't care for the subtle and not so subtle jabs at f1rebird.
An individual writes for clarification and the responses aren't all that constructive. What good does that do?
I don稚 see 努hining in his question, I see an individual who is playing the 堵ame by the games 斗isted rules where 菟rizes are listed as being awarded at the 兎vent and he has an interest in being the top scorer and is playing by the 途ules. Congratulations to him!


if my post is interpreted as a jab (subtle or not), I apologize. as one of the game administrators, I do what I can to assist. If my post was not constructive, again, I apologize. That being said, let me attempt to clarify a point here. The mention of prizes being awarded at the year end event differs greatly from the monthly award for the top point gatherer of the past. If the reports were not filed in a timely manner in the days of old, the "sandbaggers" could have yanked the rug out from under a player that felt they had the month in the bag. Even with the 7 day rule, this happened regularly, which made the game all that much more cutthroat.
Now with the prizes being given out at years end, it doesn't matter much when the points are posted other than bookkeeping needs and that when the two month cycle is nearing the end, the caches that have been found are known and can be removed from the list for the next game period.

The rule #11 reference was made in good humor, 11b states "Decisions of the game administrator are final, no appeals."


Quote:


The rules exist for a reason; I assume if they need changing they will be. As far as the extra work monitoring, those that 菟lay the game by the rules are always available to let you know when someone isn稚 playing by the rules if they choose. I would think it痴 real easy to delete points when someone points it out.


As mentioned, we will look at any and all rules that the membership have question about. This rule is one that will be likely revised for the 2013 year.
Deleting points is, as mentioned previously, not possible without deleting the entire report. That may also be something that can be looked at if the rule holds though it will take our webmaster some time to develop that option to allow the report but grant zero points.

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Operor vel Operor Non , Illic Est Haud Tendo

All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors 
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Walkingadventure
WGA President
WGA President



Joined: 2009-05-06
Posts: 2627
Location: Neenah

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

These are great discussion points and I hope everyone will be interested in discussing rule these valid points at the end of the LCG event on Groundhog's Day.

With my co-presenters, we were just 2 days ago discussing the topic of monthly winners and how that would fit into the presentation.

To all the BOD members, I appreciate all the volunteer work that goes into the site to keep things running smoothly. Sometimes I forget that this is just a "game" which is just a way to spend time being social and being in nature and there are more important real things that command our attention.

Please, if you cannot make the LCG Event, forward your concerns/questions/complements to the BOD members or as a last resort, you can send them to me, Janks15 or bif-n-sons and we'll make sure we add them to the discussion.

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The posts and opinions shared here are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the beliefs of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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Northwoods Tom
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-12-03
Posts: 632
Location: Washington Island

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Thank you for your clarifications and positive feedback. I have participated in the LCG once or maybe twice. That doesn稚 mean I don稚 monitor it or plan for taking a shot at it, especially the monthly point winner. I and I知 sure many others truly appreciate the effort that goes into it by all involved, especially the people who run it, Thank You.

I personally have a copy of the rules downloaded on my laptop along with a current list of 鏑onely Caches, waiting for a time that it becomes possible to geocache and make a shot at scoring some numbers. I also would be miffed if someone who didn稚 follow the obvious rules bounced me from a higher monthly finish. If and when the rules change, I値l play by those rules also.

And yes it is just a simple game and there are many other important issues, yet lets keep it fun and not possibly taint it for those who approach it with a serious competitive spirit.
 
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beccaday
WGA Secretary
WGA Secretary



Joined: 2010-09-22
Posts: 3590
Location: Waukesha

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm afraid I haven't racked up any LCG points in a little while, this whole pneumonia thing really has slowed me down. But I think we have a great game going and I look forward to the event. I think the 10 day thing could be a bit tricky, what if someone was on a week-long trip somewhere that they couldn't get to internet access and cached so much and took so many pictures (is this anyone else besides me and Hack1of2?) that it takes them a few days to log their finds and catch up. But on the other hand, I can see how you wouldn't want it to go too far out either. Maybe 2-3 weeks instead?

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Not all who wander are lost, some are geocaching.

Disclaimer: This post and the contents of any links or images attached is the opinion of this poster and not that of the WGA or its Board of Directors. 
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